Robb Triton
- All Messages By This Member
#6624
Hi All,
I am wondering if anyone has any insights or opinions about how best to go about insulating a Leopard. I've pulled off the ceiling panels, and there is a bit more than 1" of air space between them and the hull.
It seems like solid fibreglass is not the best insulation on earth, especially if you are trying to keep the hot tropic sun from roasting your buns in the tropics, or as is the case here, the cold and damp San Francisco bay air from freezing one's toes.
I'd like to add insulation, but worry about things like mold build-up, condensation, vapor barriers, etc.
I'm currently thinking that adding about 1/2" of closed cell foam, glued to the hull, with perhaps a vapour barrier glued to that, leaving about 1/2" of airspace between it and the panels might be a reasonable solution, but I have no idea about this, and would value any input or speculation.
Has anyone done this already, and if so, what did you use? What were your results?
Thanks,
Robb
-a very cold and damp L45 owner.
Rixzene Ayers
#6625
Rob, I can't speak about insulating a Leopard but can tell you of my experience with another vessel - afrigidaluminum boat that alsosuffered fromcondensation int he cold from every inch of aluminum which wasn't insulated. The simple solution was to use the spray foam insulation which can also be used around fridges. You can put extensions on the spray can and aim it into remote spots. Because it expands so much you have to be careful not to overdo it and practice makes the biggest difference in success or a mess. I used a lot of wax paper andplasticwrap after applying the spray, then put up the panels leaving the pastic over the insulation. It worked like a charm!It molded the still wet and pliableinsulation spray into shape but kept the panels from being stuck into the insulation before it had a chance to dry. If you have a propane sensor on board, this spray insulation will drive it mad during application and until it dries.
I also covered every window with plastic -years ago there was a system which allowed one to put upwindow plastic and then heat the plastic with a hair drier to get it to tighten up and remove the wrinkles. It looked prettyOK while providing another layer of air insulation inside the windows. Iwould think that the windows would be a large loss of heat just as they are a huge problem for conducting heat in the tropics.(I have built canvascovers which attachto the hand rail above the windows and out to the lifeline to help keep the windows cool in our hot environment.) My old boat lived in Vancouver and traveled to Alaska so the method I describe above got quite a work out and functioned well. Good luck.
Better yet, try moving south.
Rixzene, Pogeyan 47
To: LeopardCat@...
From: stuffforrobb@...
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2012 22:41:11 -0800
Subject: [LeopardCat] Question about insulation...
Hi All,
I am wondering if anyone has any insights or opinions about how best to
go about insulating a Leopard. I've pulled off the ceiling panels, and
there is a bit more than 1" of air space between them and the hull.
It seems like solid fibreglass is not the best insulation on earth,
especially if you are trying to keep the hot tropic sun from roasting
your buns in the tropics, or as is the case here, the cold and damp San
Francisco bay air from freezing one's toes.
I'd like to add insulation, but worry about things like mold build-up,
condensation, vapor barriers, etc.
I'm currently thinking that adding about 1/2" of closed cell foam, glued
to the hull, with perhaps a vapour barrier glued to that, leaving about
1/2" of airspace between it and the panels might be a reasonable
solution, but I have no idea about this, and would value any input or
speculation.
Has anyone done this already, and if so, what did you use? What were
your results?
Thanks,
Robb
-a very cold and damp L45 owner.
Tim Schaaf
- All Messages By This Member
#6626
We never had problem during a very cold and snowy Chesapeake winter, but I do remember the six winters I spent on a mono in the SF Bay area and yes, it was cold and damp. My solution was (on a much smaller boat) one of those electric heaters that is portable and looks like an old radiator style central heating unit. These have no fans and no glowing coils but work by heating a fluid that circulates in the heater. The maker, I believe, is De Longhi, and they are still easily found. These do not work quickly, in fact, it takes about a day for them to get all the air warm, but you leave them on all the time, they are no fire hazard, and I used to joke that Casual Water was the warmest, driest spot in the Bay Area, and she had much less insulation than a Leopard. It was perfect for a liveaboard. The question is, how many of these would you need on an L45, and what would the current draw be?
Jet Stream is a former crewed model, so has always had aircons that can be reverse cycled to provide heat, and that is what we used in the Chesapeake, even when the water temp got down in the mid to high 30's. I would guess that they would be very effective in the Bay, where the water will be 10-15 degrees warmer, and the air much warmer, too.
I do think that the airspace between the headliner and the decking helps a lot. but suppose that adding foam would help, too. Is the decking dripping behind the headliner?
Cheers,
Tim
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
From: Robb Triton
To: LeopardCat@...
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 2:41 AM
Subject: [LeopardCat] Question about insulation...
Hi All,
I am wondering if anyone has any insights or opinions about how best to
go about insulating a Leopard. I've pulled off the ceiling panels, and
there is a bit more than 1" of air space between them and the hull.
It seems like solid fibreglass is not the best insulation on earth,
especially if you are trying to keep the hot tropic sun from roasting
your buns in the tropics, or as is the case here, the cold and damp San
Francisco bay air from freezing one's toes.
I'd like to add insulation, but worry about things like mold build-up,
condensation, vapor barriers, etc.
I'm currently thinking that adding about 1/2" of closed cell foam, glued
to the hull, with perhaps a vapour barrier glued to that, leaving about
1/2" of airspace between it and the panels might be a reasonable
solution, but I have no idea about this, and would value any input or
speculation.
Has anyone done this already, and if so, what did you use? What were
your results?
Thanks,
Robb
-a very cold and damp L45 owner.
Ed Koplin
- All Messages By This Member
#6627
IMHO
Leopards are balsa core, a sandwich of insulation between glass. Kind of like a thermos bottle. A 1" air gap above the ceiling does additionally constitute more "insulation" (or at least a still air gap that acts like insulation). The ceiling panel is additionally a thermal break. So, I suggest that you try this....
Borrow an infra-red thermometer, or get one, they are great for checking engine temperatures from a short distance. Temporarily install 2' x2' section, replace the ceiling. Use anything that will act like it, foam, styrofoam, the closed cell you were talking about. Wait for a day where the temp in the boat is at least 20F different from the outside (hotter or colder). Check your test area with the thermometer against the original ceiling area.
If the insulation is having a dramatic benefit, you will see it. If it is only a degree or two, it may not be worth installing.
Ed
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Tim Schaaf <sycasualwater@...> wrote:
We never had problem during a very cold and snowy Chesapeake winter, but I do remember the six winters I spent on a mono in the SF Bay area and yes, it was cold and damp. My solution was (on a much smaller boat) one of those electric heaters that is portable and looks like an old radiator style central heating unit. These have no fans and no glowing coils but work by heating a fluid that circulates in the heater. The maker, I believe, is De Longhi, and they are still easily found. These do not work quickly, in fact, it takes about a day for them to get all the air warm, but you leave them on all the time, they are no fire hazard, and I used to joke that Casual Water was the warmest, driest spot in the Bay Area, and she had much less insulation than a Leopard. It was perfect for a liveaboard. The question is, how many of these would you need on an L45, and what would the current draw be?
Jet Stream is a former crewed model, so has always had aircons that can be reverse cycled to provide heat, and that is what we used in the Chesapeake, even when the water temp got down in the mid to high 30's. I would guess that they would be very effective in the Bay, where the water will be 10-15 degrees warmer, and the air much warmer, too.
I do think that the airspace between the headliner and the decking helps a lot. but suppose that adding foam would help, too. Is the decking dripping behind the headliner?
Cheers,
Tim
From: Robb Triton <stuffforrobb@...>
To: LeopardCat@...
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 2:41 AM
Subject: [LeopardCat] Question about insulation...
Hi All,
I am wondering if anyone has any insights or opinions about how best to
go about insulating a Leopard. I've pulled off the ceiling panels, and
there is a bit more than 1" of air space between them and the hull.It seems like solid fibreglass is not the best insulation on earth,
especially if you are trying to keep the hot tropic sun from roasting
your buns in the tropics, or as is the case here, the cold and damp San
Francisco bay air from freezing one's toes.I'd like to add insulation, but worry about things like mold build-up,
condensation, vapor barriers, etc.I'm currently thinking that adding about 1/2" of closed cell foam, glued
to the hull, with perhaps a vapour barrier glued to that, leaving about
1/2" of airspace between it and the panels might be a reasonable
solution, but I have no idea about this, and would value any input or
speculation.Has anyone done this already, and if so, what did you use? What were
your results?Thanks,
Robb
-a very cold and damp L45 owner.
- All Messages By This Member
#6628
Robb,
You might try TekFoil. We used it on LUX to form air conditioner ducting where there wasn't room for the hard plastic fittings. It will also act as a vapor barrier.
http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/cat1;ft1_building_material;ft1_tekfoil_1.html
I like the idea of the spray foam that Rixzene mentioned. But I also like the ability to get to the fiberglass to track down leaks and the backs of deck fittings.
-Terry
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 12/21/12 1:41 AM, Robb Triton wrote:
Hi All,I am wondering if anyone has any insights or opinions about how best to
go about insulating a Leopard. I've pulled off the ceiling panels, and
there is a bit more than 1" of air space between them and the hull.It seems like solid fibreglass is not the best insulation on earth,
especially if you are trying to keep the hot tropic sun from roasting
your buns in the tropics, or as is the case here, the cold and damp San
Francisco bay air from freezing one's toes.I'd like to add insulation, but worry about things like mold build-up,
condensation, vapor barriers, etc.I'm currently thinking that adding about 1/2" of closed cell foam, glued
to the hull, with perhaps a vapour barrier glued to that, leaving about
1/2" of airspace between it and the panels might be a reasonable
solution, but I have no idea about this, and would value any input or
speculation.Has anyone done this already, and if so, what did you use? What were
your results?Thanks,
Robb
-a very cold and damp L45 owner.
osteoflyte@juno.com
#6629
I had Hairball a L3800 for about a year before installing Tek foil in the space between vinyl overhead and the hull 4 years ago. Although I did not document the difference it is a significant improvement and a easy job with no downside.
Tek foil comes in a number of styles and I used the best which is Foil/bubble/bubble/foil. I cut it to fit the spaces (with scissors) and replaced the panel. No fixation or adhesive is needed. One large 4' roll at about $94 did the boat + leftover. It has no problem later removing a panel, it is waterproof and very light weight. I got mine from Tek company but I understand Lowes may carry it also. If yo need to replace the end bumpers on the Genoa tracks or do rebidding have the materials on hand. I was not so wise. Bruce on Hairball
____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50d498c54e35c18c5431ast02vuc
Bogdan Steiu
#6654
Hello All,
This is a very interesting topic, as I understand some of you guys did go to Alaska, and colder climates…just wondering, once insulation is done, how would one heat properly the boat, once outside is pretty cold, in freezing temperatures.
I do use up in Canada-Ontario in September October the reverse heat from the 2 air conditioning units, and have to have the generator on as I am mostly on the hook..yet, I would rather not have to use the generator, and I am sure
Any special systems like Espar or so? The main issue would be having to runA new set of piping for the Espar or a different diesel heating system, and there is not so much room to do so….
Best Regards,
Bogdan Steiu
e-mail:bogdan@...
cell:416-918-0939
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
From: LeopardCat@... [mailto:LeopardCat@...]On Behalf Of osteoflyte@...
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:13 PM
To: LeopardCat@...
Subject: Re: [LeopardCat] Question about insulation...
I had Hairball a L3800 for about a year before installing Tek foil in the space between vinyl overhead and the hull 4 years ago. Although I did not document the difference it is a significant improvement and a easy job with no downside.
Tek foil comes in a number of styles and I used the best which is Foil/bubble/bubble/foil. I cut it to fit the spaces (with scissors) and replaced the panel. No fixation or adhesive is needed. One large 4' roll at about $94 did the boat + leftover. It has no problem later removing a panel, it is waterproof and very light weight. I got mine from Tek company but I understand Lowes may carry it also. If yo need to replace the end bumpers on the Genoa tracks or do rebidding have the materials on hand. I was not so wise. Bruce on Hairball
__________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50d498c54e35c18c5431ast02vuc
Larry's Phone
#6655
I am currently cruising Alaska - or at least will return there in the spring, and may have a little help for you on this topic. LIAHONA is a 42, and I have NOT gone out of my way to insulate her in any way. I have installed canvas hatch covers with just a 1/8 inch sheet of foam insulation, and I do have 90% UV blocking sunbrella on the forward and side salon windows. I also have the twin 16000 btu reverse cycle a/c units and the genset. I HAVE spent some serious money on a 30,000 btu hydronic heating system (Webssto), and find I am pretty well covered for heating or cooling the boat in any environment. In short, to me it appears to be too much effort and expense to insulate. The one component I installed that I believe is VITAL to improving my comfort are the engine heat exchangers that allow me to utilize engine heat for boat heating when the engine is running - ALL the time when cruising north thru the inside passage! ALSO, the HX can TAKE heat from the boiler and pre-heat engines before starting. While running under power, we have found the boat to be toast inside - and I even installed a heat register just below the helm - so with the aid of a light blanket around my arthritic knees, even the helmsman is toasty!
In the tropics, we have found the natural ventilation thru hatches and ports to be adequate most of the time, and still have the A/C units and generator if it gets really bad. We have not yet gotten further south than the Mexican BAJA, but we HAVE done a couple Summers and falls there - with high angle sun rays and 110 degree weather - and we made it just fine! (Always in those conditions to get in the water)!
My two cents worth! (Actually four cents, I guess, since I just read our brilliant government spends two cents to make each one cent coin)!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Dec 28, 2012, at 22:43, Bogdan Steiu <bogdan@...> wrote:
Hello All,
This is a very interesting topic, as I understand some of you guys did go to Alaska, and colder climates…just wondering, once insulation is done, how would one heat properly the boat, once outside is pretty cold, in freezing temperatures.
I do use up in Canada-Ontario in September October the reverse heat from the 2 air conditioning units, and have to have the generator on as I am mostly on the hook..yet, I would rather not have to use the generator, and I am sure
Any special systems like Espar or so? The main issue would be having to runA new set of piping for the Espar or a different diesel heating system, and there is not so much room to do so….
Best Regards,
Bogdan Steiu
e-mail:bogdan@...
cell:416-918-0939
From: LeopardCat@... [mailto:LeopardCat@...]On Behalf Of osteoflyte@...
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:13 PM
To: LeopardCat@...
Subject: Re: [LeopardCat] Question about insulation...I had Hairball a L3800 for about a year before installing Tek foil in the space between vinyl overhead and the hull 4 years ago. Although I did not document the difference it is a significant improvement and a easy job with no downside.
Tek foil comes in a number of styles and I used the best which is Foil/bubble/bubble/foil. I cut it to fit the spaces (with scissors) and replaced the panel. No fixation or adhesive is needed. One large 4' roll at about $94 did the boat + leftover. It has no problem later removing a panel, it is waterproof and very light weight. I got mine from Tek company but I understand Lowes may carry it also. If yo need to replace the end bumpers on the Genoa tracks or do rebidding have the materials on hand. I was not so wise. Bruce on Hairball
__________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50d498c54e35c18c5431ast02vuc
William Black
- All Messages By This Member
#6656
Larry,
I am impressed. Thoughtfully done and (obviously) spectacularly successful!
It is a delight to hear of such accomplishments.
Thank you,
Bill Black
s/v Cayenne
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Larry's Phone <lraymcneil@...> wrote:
I am currently cruising Alaska - or at least will return there in the spring, and may have a little help for you on this topic. LIAHONA is a 42, and I have NOT gone out of my way to insulate her in any way. I have installed canvas hatch covers with just a 1/8 inch sheet of foam insulation, and I do have 90% UV blocking sunbrella on the forward and side salon windows. I also have the twin 16000 btu reverse cycle a/c units and the genset. I HAVE spent some serious money on a 30,000 btu hydronic heating system (Webssto), and find I am pretty well covered for heating or cooling the boat in any environment. In short, to me it appears to be too much effort and expense to insulate. The one component I installed that I believe is VITAL to improving my comfort are the engine heat exchangers that allow me to utilize engine heat for boat heating when the engine is running - ALL the time when cruising north thru the inside passage! ALSO, the HX can TAKE heat from the boiler and pre-heat engines before starting. While running under power, we have found the boat to be toast inside - and I even installed a heat register just below the helm - so with the aid of a light blanket around my arthritic knees, even the helmsman is toasty!
In the tropics, we have found the natural ventilation thru hatches and ports to be adequate most of the time, and still have the A/C units and generator if it gets really bad. We have not yet gotten further south than the Mexican BAJA, but we HAVE done a couple Summers and falls there - with high angle sun rays and 110 degree weather - and we made it just fine! (Always in those conditions to get in the water)!
My two cents worth! (Actually four cents, I guess, since I just read our brilliant government spends two cents to make each one cent coin)!
On Dec 28, 2012, at 22:43, Bogdan Steiu <bogdan@...> wrote:
Hello All,
This is a very interesting topic, as I understand some of you guys did go to Alaska, and colder climates…just wondering, once insulation is done, how would one heat properly the boat, once outside is pretty cold, in freezing temperatures.
I do use up in Canada-Ontario in September October the reverse heat from the 2 air conditioning units, and have to have the generator on as I am mostly on the hook..yet, I would rather not have to use the generator, and I am sure
Any special systems like Espar or so? The main issue would be having to runA new set of piping for the Espar or a different diesel heating system, and there is not so much room to do so….
Best Regards,
Bogdan Steiu
e-mail:bogdan@...
cell:416-918-0939
From: LeopardCat@... [mailto:LeopardCat@...]On Behalf Of osteoflyte@...
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:13 PM
To: LeopardCat@...
Subject: Re: [LeopardCat] Question about insulation...I had Hairball a L3800 for about a year before installing Tek foil in the space between vinyl overhead and the hull 4 years ago. Although I did not document the difference it is a significant improvement and a easy job with no downside.
Tek foil comes in a number of styles and I used the best which is Foil/bubble/bubble/foil. I cut it to fit the spaces (with scissors) and replaced the panel. No fixation or adhesive is needed. One large 4' roll at about $94 did the boat + leftover. It has no problem later removing a panel, it is waterproof and very light weight. I got mine from Tek company but I understand Lowes may carry it also. If yo need to replace the end bumpers on the Genoa tracks or do rebidding have the materials on hand. I was not so wise. Bruce on Hairball
__________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50d498c54e35c18c5431ast02vuc
Lee Haefele
- All Messages By This Member
#6657
For cold weather, the old model L38, and I assume others of the 2000 ish vintage need the holes under the sink plugged. These are oversize holes that feed wires out to the anchor locker.
Lee Haefele
